2040 Draft Orders

This topic contains 28 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Barquisimeto CAN 4 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #5041
     Hong Kong CUB 
    Spectator

    The league office is pleased to announce the draft orders for the 2040 season.

    United States

    1. Vancouver
    2. Oaxaca
    3. Santiago de Cuba
    4. Maracaibo
    5. Monterrey
    6. Chihuahua
    7. Puerto Plata
    8. Akashi

    Japan

    1. Xi’an
    2. Pacora
    3. Nagasaki
    4. Toronto
    5. Changsha
    6. Cancun
    7. Panama City
    8. Philadelphia

    Cuba

    1. Busan
    2. Rizao
    3. Baracoa
    4. Tocumen
    5. Seoul
    6. Hukuoka
    7. Azua
    8. Lagunillas

    Venezuela

    1. Mexico City
    2. Tijuana
    3. Erie
    4. Hamilton
    5. Taegu
    6. Mao
    7. Valencia
    8. Santiago de los

    South Korea

    1. Quebec
    2. San Lorenzo
    3. Toluca
    4. Toa Baja
    5. Thunder Bay
    6. Hong Kong
    7. La Habana
    8. Jeonju

    Dominican Republic

    1. Tokyo
    2. Tokorozawa
    3. Bani
    4. Colon
    5. Bonao
    6. Moca
    7. Sapporo
    8. Bocas del Toro

    Canada

    1. Wuhan
    2. Santurce
    3. Brooklyn
    4. Suwon
    5. Incheon
    6. Cheju
    7. Barquisimeto
    8. Roswell
  • #30395
     Tijuana VEN 
    Spectator

    QUESTION- This list shows Taegu with 5th pick and Tijuana with 2nd pick. IN GAME the Draft Order is shown as Taegu 2nd, Tijuana 3rd.

    Pretty critical given the pool, what is the correct order?

    Gordon

  • #30396
     Taegu JPN 
    Spectator

    OOTP always has a default order prior to the draft. the simmer always over-rides that order with that determined by our rules, which is the order that Marc indicated in his post.

  • #30397
     Tijuana VEN 
    Spectator

    So I can shelve the call for an investigation of gross corruption Cap_PDT_01_07

  • #30399
     Hong Kong CUB 
    Spectator

    I suppose I could have edited the draft order since the sim ended on draft day, but I didn’t get around to it. I’ll change the order before running the sim.

  • #30400
     Barquisimeto CAN 
    Spectator

    Finish last, get relegated. Pick 7th overall… Seems like something is wrong with that.

  • #30402
     Changsha JPN 
    Spectator

    Still for a random order. No reason to stink to improve your order.

  • #30403
     Tijuana VEN 
    Spectator

    @Barquisimeto (CAN) wrote:

    Finish last, get relegated. Pick 7th overall… Seems like something is wrong with that.

    Ouch!

    I am in the flip side of that situation. Two bad teams in Venezuela last get relegated. They soaked up mt of the losses inthe league. I finished in 3rd place just 4 games under .500 and get 2nd pick. Not saying I want to give up my number 2 slot but it points to, perhaps, a flaw in the +10 games in moving down and -10 games moving up.

    Maybe combine the +10/-10 rule with a guarantee that no relegated teams will get worse than a number 4 pick and those moving up a level would get no better than a number 5 pick (for symmetry).

  • #30409
     Bocas del Toro VEN 
    Spectator

    @Changsha (JPN) wrote:

    Still for a random order. No reason to stink to improve your order.

    I know I’m probably in the minority here, but I agree with this. I don’t understand any sport that rewards losing, and they all encourage it…especially once you realize you’re not going to win the division.

  • #30411
     Vancouver CUB 
    Spectator

    I would like to see the draft held before teams are promoted/relegated and eliminate the +10/-10 altogether. Doesn’t make sense for your record in another league to be determining draft position. Not sure if this is feasible or not but I can’t think of a reason offhand why it would not be.

    I’ve always though the most elegant solution to reduce tanking is having the 7th team get the #1 pick that way #7 and #8 have to play to win until the end.

    Also, I would have no problem with the four worst records being seeded randomly. I wouldn’t want 1-8 to be random because I don’t want the best team to get the #1 pick.

  • #30412
     Toluca KOR 
    Spectator

    I know I am in the minority, but how about we all draft from the same pool?

  • #30413
     Vancouver CUB 
    Spectator

    @Toluca (KOR) wrote:

    I know I am in the minority, but how about we all draft from the same pool?

    Not sure that’s possible the way the league is set up as 7 distinct major leagues.

    That would certainly be ideal though, with orders based on tier/wins, or even power rankings. But the logistics of a 600 player draft pool and 300 player draft lists is a little eye-glazing. Enjoy making your 56-player list for the first round Chiuahua!

  • #30415
     Bocas del Toro VEN 
    Spectator

    @Vancouver (USA) wrote:

    I would like to see the draft held before teams are promoted/relegated and eliminate the +10/-10 altogether. Doesn’t make sense for your record in another league to be determining draft position. Not sure if this is feasible or not but I can’t think of a reason offhand why it would not be.

    I’ve always though the most elegant solution to reduce tanking is having the 7th team get the #1 pick that way #7 and #8 have to play to win until the end.

    Also, I would have no problem with the four worst records being seeded randomly. I wouldn’t want 1-8 to be random because I don’t want the best team to get the #1 pick.

    Or have the 2 Division winners pick 7th and 8th and the other 6 go in a random draw. The Winners already got promoted or at least had a chance at the USA Title, so they all go rewarded in a way anyways. If the other 6 teams had a random chance at the #1 pick it would discourage tanking and basically you could focus on winning instead of being encouraged to throw a few games at the end of the year.

  • #30417
     Maracaibo USA 
    Spectator

    I’m against any randomness in the draft. The worst teams should get the top picks.

    Since the heirarchy re-org, with the middle two tiers promoting and demoting, tanking is a lot harder to actually accomplish. I don’t think it is a problem.

    I like Vancouver’s suggestion about doing the draft before promotion/relegation if it really is the +10/-10 win thing that is leading to teams like Barq being relegated and picking 7th, but it seems to be such a rare occurence, I would really hate to see us throw a lottery of any kind into the mix. Would make it worse.

  • #30420
     Bocas del Toro VEN 
    Spectator

    @Maracaibo (USA) wrote:

    I’m against any randomness in the draft. The worst teams should get the top picks.

    Since the heirarchy re-org, with the middle two tiers promoting and demoting, tanking is a lot harder to actually accomplish. I don’t think it is a problem.

    I like Vancouver’s suggestion about doing the draft before promotion/relegation if it really is the +10/-10 win thing that is leading to teams like Barq being relegated and picking 7th, but it seems to be such a rare occurence, I would really hate to see us throw a lottery of any kind into the mix. Would make it worse.

    I just disagree with awarding losing in any form…if I’m 30-30 halfway through the season but already 10+ games behind a great team I know I’m not going to catch, I shouldn’t be encouraged to stop trying and start benching my good players to intentionally lose. Anything that encourages owners to play out the year and always put their best lineups in is worth it to me.

    I think it’s the biggest thing wrong with sports today…encouraging losing/tanking. I agree with relegation that it’s lessened a bit, but less teams would go for the “all out losing” to get a few years of great #1 picks before they “start trying to win”.

  • #30421
     Tijuana VEN 
    Spectator

    @Vancouver (USA) wrote:

    @Toluca (KOR) wrote:

    I know I am in the minority, but how about we all draft from the same pool?

    Not sure that’s possible the way the league is set up as 7 distinct major leagues.

    That would certainly be ideal though, with orders based on tier/wins, or even power rankings. But the logistics of a 600 player draft pool and 300 player draft lists is a little eye-glazing. Enjoy making your 56-player list for the first round Chiuahua!

    Horrors!

  • #30422
     Hong Kong CUB 
    Spectator

    @Maracaibo (USA) wrote:

    I like Vancouver’s suggestion about doing the draft before promotion/relegation if it really is the +10/-10 win thing that is leading to teams like Barq being relegated and picking 7th, but it seems to be such a rare occurence, I would really hate to see us throw a lottery of any kind into the mix. Would make it worse.

    To go some way toward explaining…have a look at the numbers.

    All “relegated” means is that you came in 4th place out of four teams. It doesn’t mean your team is a train wreck.

    Barquisimeto is picking 7th because they’re not a bad team.

    (Yes, I agree the +/-10 is a number that could be changed, based on analysis, though we don’t really have statistically significant analysis of 3rd/4th tier difference available yet…so it’s somewhat arbitrary, at the moment.)

    But Barq was only 6 games below .500. Their Pythagorean was only 3 games below .500. Their run differential was only -25 (462 runs scored, 487 runs allowed). If that team was in Canada, then we can easily extrapolate a positive run differential, and a winning record.

    Therefore, 7th draft position is a fairly reasonable assumption of what might have happened were they in Canada all year anyway.

  • #30429
     Mexico City DOM 
    Spectator

    I’m surprised so many people fear the tanking idea – aren’t we all trying to win? I would hope so! I can’t recall one group of tankers in my 10 seasons here…

    I do like the idea of drafting before demotion. If that’s doable, it certainly is a time saver for Marc – no figuring out who drafts where…

  • #30432
     Seoul KOR 
    Spectator

    I really like the idea of drafting before promotion/relegation. It would save somebody a lot of calculations in figuring out draft order. There would be no need for debate about “fair” placement in the draft order after promotion/relegation. Seems like a win-win.

    I am definitely opposed to random or lottery based draft order.

    I’m not so worried about tanking. I’m figuring we all want to win it all at some point in time, and stay at the top as a dynasty. There are different strategies on how best to get there.

    Going for broke trying to win it all is one strategy, which might cripple a team for years, if the gamble doesn’t pay off. Then there are different degrees of how much we’re willing to risk to win now. Not making a bunch of sacrifices to win is much different than trying to lose.

    Coming in lower in the standings might bag a high draft pick, but still hurts a team in the long run, regarding potential relegation (which can take many years with a successful team trying to climb back up), fan loyalty, players not wanting to sign with a losing team, sitting a player to avoid injury or wins has some benefits but also causes rust and probably messes with the development engine, etc…

    If someone is intentionally losing to get a higher draft pick, it is certainly penny wise and pound foolish. However, not making unnecessary sacrifices during a year my team has no chance to win, is wise long-term team management.

    Tanking is really a subjective term, as well. It implies intent. Trying “real hard to win” and “not really trying hard to win” are just different degrees of the same motivation. Trying “real hard to win now” can hurt my future chances. Not trying “real hard now”, helps my future chances. One could take the straight path of always trying to win the most I can during the current season, eventually working my way up the ladder. Someone else could take the roller coaster ride of shooting to the top, then sinking to the bottom to retool. It’s the age old tortoise verses the hair strategies. Neither is good or bad or right or wrong for our league in my opinion.

    Trying to lose on purpose, in other words, somehow intentionally sabotaging my team that has a reasonable likelihood to win, is something completely different. That’s not good for the competitive spirit of our league. But even if a handful of teams do it, for a short while, it’s not going to ruin our league. We have plenty teams in the struggle every season, and most every team is in the long-term hunt.

    I can “try real hard to win now at the expense of the future” or “invest for future wins at the expense of today’s results”. Those are both completely acceptable strategies in my book. And they will affect the draft order, which is appropriate in my book. We are all playing by the same rules. Besides, there’s no real way to police somebody’s intent to sabotage a team.

  • #30440
     Seoul KOR 
    Spectator

    Pushing the promotion/relegation back until after the draft could be an alternative possibility if moving the draft early doesn’t make sense.

  • #30441
     Bocas del Toro VEN 
    Spectator

    @Seoul (CUB) wrote:

    Pushing the promotion/relegation back until after the draft could be an alternative possibility if moving the draft early doesn’t make sense.

    But then relegated teams would be first draft picks…and as Mark mentioned before, not all relegated teams are equal. Some of them are close to .500, get relegated and then are favourites in the lower league the year after. I don’t see any reason to reward relegated teams. Personally I don’t think we should encourage losing at all.

  • #30444
     Seoul KOR 
    Spectator

    If we do not “encourage losing at all”, then only the championship teams or those with the best record would get the first draft pick. Am I understanding correctly?

    I think that system would lead to a few super-dynasties and most other teams having no chance to catch up.

  • #30445
     Bocas del Toro VEN 
    Spectator

    @Seoul (CUB) wrote:

    If we do not “encourage losing at all”, then only the championship teams or those with the best record would get the first draft pick. Am I understanding correctly?

    I think that system would lead to a few super-dynasties and most other teams having no chance to catch up.

    No, personally I think the draft should be random…perhaps having the 2 division winners draft 7th and 8th since they get a prize anyways (promotion/championship). Why should poor management be rewarded? And yes, you can be a good Manager and finish last, it’s happened to us all, but I’d say 9 out of 10 (other than the USA) are teams that are not trying to win. Right now there’s an incentive to be great and an incentive to suck. If you’re not going to be great, why not just throw in the towel?

    If the draft is random from the bottom 6, then every team has no incentive to not field a solid, competitive lineup. I really don’t understand giving a prize to someone who performs poorly, either through bad luck or bad management. Why should we discourage the 45-55 team in the last month of the season from trying to win?

  • #30447
     Baracoa CUB 
    Spectator

    The way I see it is that relegation is supposed to be super-punishing and promotion is supposed to be super-rewarding. So there’s always an incentive to do well, and set up your team for success in the offseason, because you really don’t want to get relegated. Sure, there may be a point in-season where you can ease up on the brakes a little bit when you’re 10 games up on last place in August but 10 games back of the lead, but is that really a huge deal?

  • #30450
     Mexico City DOM 
    Spectator

    @Bocas del Toro (DOM) wrote:

    but I’d say 9 out of 10 (other than the USA) are teams that are not trying to win. Right now there’s an incentive to be great and an incentive to suck. If you’re not going to be great, why not just throw in the towel?

    I hope you are speaking for yourself here, so that the pot is calling the kettle black, for I’ll say that I’m pretty offended at the suggestion that I’m a towel thrower. Mexico City really sucked when I took over, with a minor league cupboard barer than bare – still is, despite drafting high because the talent in the drafts has been so poor. Yet we managed to win two division titles and one championship.

    Here… Have my towel, I won’t be needing it – but I guess you may… The concept of a lottery draft is the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard in sports (ok, a clock in baseball… So second worst)… The system ain’t broke, no need to fix it – if anything were done, draft before relegation/demotion and end this dumbass argument!

  • #30451
     Tijuana VEN 
    Spectator

    A lot depends on your definitions. If I am 10 games ahead of 4th place, and 10 games behind 1st place in mid-August, am I more likely to back off on an older arm with a huge contract in favor of a AAA callup to see how they will do, without caring about the W/L results… YEAH I will do that. If that is throwing in the towel, so be it. I consider protecting an investment and trying out a new potential.

  • #30452
     Vancouver CUB 
    Spectator

    I’m sure this will be discussed by the board (again) at some point but it will likely be an “ain’t broke, don’t fix it” conclusion.

    I’m waffling on the +10/-10 thing. I was in favor of doing the draft before promotion/relegation but to Andrew and Marc’s points a relegated team should be penalized a bit because (in theory) they are better than most of the teams in their new league, and a promoted team is worse (in theory) than teams in their new league. I’m ok with how it’s done now.

    Tanking, if it’s a problem at all, is only an issue in the bottom tiers and now we only have two. Not prioritizing winning when you’re safe from being relegated but have no chance of winning is just a natural part of the game. I’m totally running my ace out there on short rest in September if I’m 3 games out but I’m going with a 6-man rotation if I’m 10 out. To me that’s prioritizing winning next year.

    Plus, the draft is such a damn crap shoot. Rarely does a guy show up ML-ready and many prospects don’t come close to potentials. The difference between drafting 1st or 2nd is probably pretty small in terms of future value.

    I suppose if I wanted a super-terrific world where everyone tried their hardest to the last game I would do a solo league but what I like about the WBH is the human element and that includes all the different strategies, philosophies, indifferences, emotions, skills, and incompetencies that humans possess.

  • #30460
     Bocas del Toro VEN 
    Spectator

    @Mexico City (VEN) wrote:

    @Bocas del Toro (DOM) wrote:

    but I’d say 9 out of 10 (other than the USA) are teams that are not trying to win. Right now there’s an incentive to be great and an incentive to suck. If you’re not going to be great, why not just throw in the towel?

    I hope you are speaking for yourself here, so that the pot is calling the kettle black, for I’ll say that I’m pretty offended at the suggestion that I’m a towel thrower. Mexico City really sucked when I took over, with a minor league cupboard barer than bare – still is, despite drafting high because the talent in the drafts has been so poor. Yet we managed to win two division titles and one championship.

    Here… Have my towel, I won’t be needing it – but I guess you may… The concept of a lottery draft is the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard in sports (ok, a clock in baseball… So second worst)… The system ain’t broke, no need to fix it – if anything were done, draft before relegation/demotion and end this dumbass argument!

    Didn’t mean to offend you…but you really think it’s a great idea for the New York Knicks to shut down their best player with 4 months to go in the season for a minor surgery he could easily have got in the offseason. The only reason he got the surgery was because the Knicks sucked anyways, so why not bench your best player, lose even more and get a better pick. If I had season tickets for the Knicks, I’d be awfully annoyed paying big bucks to watch minor leagues lose night after night because the team decided to release/trade/bench any player that would help them win games.

    Or in the NHL this year when Buffalo Sabres fans were booing their team who had just scored the winning OT Goal because they were playing another terrible team and ended up not getting the best chance in the lottery for the #1 pick. How sad when home fans boo a win…and it happens in the NFL every year as well.

    If those 2 situations don’t show you the system is broke, I don’t know what will…teams or fans actively hoping to lose.

    I was in the USA for a while, my team barely got relegated, then had a few seasons of 500 ball in Japan…after that, I decided it wasn’t going to be possible to rebuild picking 7th or 8th every year with an empty farm system, so why not sell off everything, really suck for a few years and load up on some high draft choices. I’m far from the only one who’s done that.

    I realize the draft is mostly a crapshoot anyways, so my point was to just get people talking, which I obviously did….the forum has been pretty quiet lately. It’s not a big deal either way to me, I just think it’s silly to encourage losing.

  • #30462
     Barquisimeto CAN 
    Spectator

    The draft is certainly a crapshoot, but you certainly get a much better ticket in the lottery when you pick early.

    The game already penalizes teams quite harshly for poor play and it takes a lot of work to minimize some of that damage. I’ve done a full teardown/rebuild in the past and I can tell you that it’s probably the best way to build a dynasty team capable of shooting up through all the Tiers. Managed to do so but just missed out on getting all the way to the top with a USA Championship.

    The team I have now is ok, might be able to win Canada but would just end up in the same cycle. So time to blow it up. As for my relegation, I was trying to win up till the end.

    Best idea I’ve heard about how to make the draft competitive is to run a reverse standings for it. The worst teams still get an advantage, but the incentive is to win at the end.

    Once teams are eliminated from playoff contention, they now start earning points towards the first overall draft pick. Teams who are eliminated earliest have the most games to earn wins/points towards the pick, so this is their advantage. Doubt it’s really possible to do here easily, but every professional sports organization should implement this kind of process.

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